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0:00:06 - Helen
Hello and welcome back to season three of the HR Edit, the podcast from South East employers looking at those common and often tricky HR questions. I'm sure you've all noticed the HR Edit has had a little bit of a glow up. Thank you, sarah, for the new graphics. They look amazing. We have lots of really great topics coming up this season and some new faces to introduce. But to kick off the season, I have with me our podcast favourites, hr Guru and Employment and People Insight Manager at SCE, michelle and Sarah, our very knowledgeable Business Development Manager. Welcome back, guys. 

0:00:38 - Sarah
Hi, I think maybe you're talking us up a little bit there. 

0:00:43 - Helen
We're going to have to live up to in season three. 

0:00:46 - Sarah
I do like the word knowledgeable. Yeah season three and thank you to everybody who has downloaded and listened to our podcast. We're getting some really lovely feedback and, like Helen said, we've got some really cool stuff coming up. 

0:00:59 - Michelle
I can't believe we're on season three already. 

0:01:03 - Sarah
Yeah, it's mad, it's mad, it's a lot of work. Yeah, it's mad, it's mad, it's a lot of work, but it's it's so worth it. It's fantastic, and I really, I really enjoy these conversations as well, and it kind of makes me more knowledgeable. 

0:01:12 - Helen
Thank you for that Helen and if you do want to listen to season one or two of the podcast, they are available on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcast, and all details can be found on our website if you do want to go back and listen to our previous conversations. 

0:01:27 - Michelle
Fab and what's even better is one of our regional employer sister organisations is thinking about taking up the baton and doing their own podcasts. 

0:01:35 - Helen
Amazing. So today, to kick off the season, we're going to be discussing drug and alcohol policies. Michelle, I'm going to throw it over to you. Tell us about it. 

0:01:44 - Michelle
Thanks, Helen. Yeah, we've been having a number of conversations in various networks and forums over the last few months about organisations implementing drug and alcohol policies and the challenges and the different approaches that they can be, that they can take. So we thought it was really timely to bring that into the podcast and share the conversations that we've been having. So we thought it was really timely to bring that into the podcast and share the conversations that we've been having. 

0:02:08 - Sarah
Yeah, we have these regularly, don't we? In our health and safety meetings with health and safety officers around the southeast, and certainly for the last few meetings, there's a definite trend where there's a lot of policy writing going on and then there's a lot of questions about how you approach putting that policy into action. I suppose you know when you need to test somebody, how you communicate that. 

0:02:30 - Michelle
Yeah, and I think that's one of the big challenges. I mean taking a step back when you're looking at your policy. There are a few things you need to consider. So the first is you know how are you going to do the testing? Are you going to have trained managers on site who can undertake the testing, or are you going to do the testing? Are you going to have trained managers on site who can undertake the testing, or are you going to outsource it to a firm who you call up and say you need to be here within the hour Because timing may well be critical? But you also have to decide how you're going to administer it from a policy perspective. Are you going to do drug testing on a random basis, or are you going to put it in your policy that you could? You can only do it with calls, and by that we mean, you know, has someone turned up to work and they're behaving oddly, or you can smell alcohol on their breath and effectively, you are concerned that they may be under the influence of something that would make them not fit to work. So there are some key considerations there, and I remember back gosh, it must be 20 odd years ago when I worked for City of London. I hate thinking back that far or realising it's that far back, should I say. You know, we at the time we were talking about drug and alcohol policies and drug and alcohol testing and we had someone from TfL come in and and speak to us train drivers, one of those professions where they are in a really responsible position you know, responsible for the lives of everybody who's on those trains. So from that safety critical perspective, they were in the process of implementing random drug testing and you know the conversations they'd been having with the unions. You know obviously we're talking 20 years ago. You know things were very different and actually the unions were not supportive of introducing drug and alcohol testing into the workforce, despite the safety critical nature of the work that these individuals were undertaking. Thankfully, we have moved on a little bit since then and unions are more accepting of the need to have policies in place. And from a council perspective, you know we do have those safety critical roles. 

Anyone who's driving heavy goods vehicles, your waste teams, your green spaces teams, your gritter truck drivers in the winter, all of those are really safety critical. One, they're in branded vehicles, so your name's all over the place. But two. Those kinds of vehicles can do a huge amount of damage to people and property if they end up out of control. But it's not just those high profile and very public roles. Anyone who drives on behalf of your organization has a has a higher risk for you in terms of the reputational risk. If someone were to have an accident because they were drunk at the wheel and we've seen it, you know happen, and in the past haven't we. You know there was a bus driver up in Scotland who plowed into pedestrians and you know, turns out they were under the influence of of something I can't remember quite what, but it's. 

It's not a good image for an organisation to have when there's that. 

0:05:41 - Sarah
You know those it's that sort of reputational damage as well that you get, you know, in. It's that looking after that, um, your workforce, and you've got people as well. I mean, I used to I'm a graphic designer in the past at local council and it was all the heavy machinery in the sort of print room that you'd use as well. You know there's guillotine and although I I managed not to hurt myself, I, you know you think somebody under the influence. You know there's guillotine and although I managed not to hurt myself, I, you know you think somebody under the influence. You know it's amazing what you can do when you're not thinking straight. And all the kind of print machinery and everything else. 

And, like you say, those housing offices that go out and visit the environmental health offices, that go out and visit anybody who's driving a vehicle, be it their own or whatever. You know, once you're, when you're at work, there is that duty of care to your colleagues. There's that duty of care to the public. You know insurance only covers so much. But, like you say, going back to the reputational damage, with everybody now branding their vans and their lorries and everybody wears id badges, and it's really important to make sure that you are looking after your staff, because what looks worse than you're sort of? You know there's an accident, somebody's under the influence, and you know it is your duty of care to to help them. They may have a problem yeah absolutely and I think there's. 

0:06:54 - Michelle
You know we've been talking about those who are driving vehicles to get to their job or to do their job, but actually you've also got the other side of it is, you know, if you've got someone who is in a social care role, um, or, as you say, that sort of green spaces where they are interacting with the public or clients, actually their behaviour can very much be influenced by the substances that they're using, which then has an impact or a risk factor associated with, you know, the interactions with the client and the service that that client is receiving. 

Yeah, yeah. So you know I mean a worst case scenario. Taking a care worker as an example, you know they are helping an individual with their personal care. They may be helping with finances. You know you've got a whole set of risks there in terms of inappropriate interactions. But also, if someone has got a drug use problem, as an example, and they are managing someone else's finances and that individual is vulnerable and maybe doesn't understand their finances as as well as they you know they might do, they are at real risk of those finances being abused by someone who is in a position of power, as a care worker would be. So it's all that kind of stuff that you need to kind of think about and why you would be looking at putting in a drug and alcohol policy into your workforce yeah and so. 

0:08:24 - Sarah
So moving on then, because that leads really nicely into you know what we were talking about earlier, where our health and safety officers have been writing those policies, and of course, health and safety very much overlaps now with the HR side of things as well, because it is all about those people management and these kind of policies are about people management and duty of care. So the conversations we've been having are about writing of the policy. Is fine, that's not a problem because it's writing in black and white. It's how then do you implement that? Do you randomly test? Do you have a specific date at which you test which? Obviously there's issues related to that, you know. Do you pick on a team and test them all? You know it's those kind of conversations and how you broach that, that subject, with somebody. Have you got any insight, Michelle, that you can give us in terms of that kind of advice to people when they're actually having to implement that policy? 

0:09:17 - Michelle
yeah, I mean it is always going to be tricky because people will be defensive. You know there's a an element of invading their privacy and their right to a private life. But it's that same old line that is very difficult to tread. What you do in your personal life is fine, but at the point at which it starts to impact your ability to do your job, then it becomes the employer's responsibility and ultimately your manager is responsible for having those initial conversations. 

Say, look, I'm concerned and generally speaking, the best way to go about it is to to do the. I am concerned that there is something going on here. You know you're putting your, potentially putting yourself and your colleagues, members of the public, at risk and I'd like to understand a bit more and have that conversation, open up the conversation in that supportive way initially. If you are met with the resistance, then that takes it down a different route and actually, you know you are probably looking at getting HR involved and sort of saying actually you know I'm trying to deal with this, I need some support here, and it might be the HR coach, you, you, through it, it may be the hr step in and join the conversation. But I would always recommend trying that supportive approach. First, if there is an obvious issue ie the person is stumbling over and it's really clear they are drunk then you know you are effectively instantly looking at medical suspension because they're not fit to do to work that day remembering that medical suspension is on full pay and there are risks associated with it. 

As the employer because they're on your site you have a duty of care to make sure that person gets home safely because if anything were to happen on the journey home from work, that could come back to to the employer because you have sent them home. So if someone is stumbling over drunk and you are medically suspending, don't let them get in their car. Sounds obvious, but it may be wise to have a colleague drive them home or pay for a taxi to get them home. 

0:11:19 - Sarah
That way you are following your obligation to protect that individual and get them home safely in that in that case, Michelle, with a medical suspension, then would you test on site before you sent them home, would you have to gather some kind of evidence is what I'm saying, I think to then be able to suspend them on a medical suspension. 

0:11:39 - Michelle
So, if you're talking, about a drug and alcohol policy, I would absolutely be testing before sending them home. 

And this is where that conversation about with cause versus random testing comes in. Now, in reality, the best drug and alcohol policies will have both aspects. You will have the ability to test with cause, but also undertake the random, random testing as well. Someone stumbling over, drunk or with very out of character behaviour you have cause to test and it's absolutely right that you you know you sort of put them in a room and say look, I am concerned about your behaviour, I am under the drug and alcohol policy, I am going to do a with cause test. Once the samples have been taken, you can then make the arrangements to for that individual to go home under the medical suspension side of things, if it's not so bad that, uh, you know, you're just a bit concerned about it, and you might be able to give them light duties or different duties for that day, rather than sending them out in a, in a vehicle to drive whilst you're waiting for the results to come back. 

0:12:50 - Sarah
You can, you know you can put them to those other duties, but no, if you're, if you have concerns and you are considering medical suspension, I would absolutely test before releasing them under the the with cause element of the policy so in that, on that basis, then, Michelle and I'm going to throw this in here what happens if somebody refuses to do that with cause test because, assuming they're sort of drunk and they obviously don't want to be found out they're drunk or they're on on drugs or whatever and they are, there's clearly something wrong. Am I right in thinking that when they sign their contract, they're signing up to these? And I agree that you are able to take a with cause sample? 

0:13:36 - Michelle
So that will depend on the contract of employment and how it is worded and how your policies are worded. And this is where it's often easier to implement drug and alcohol testing in a safety critical role versus, say, an HR role. Yeah, say right. An HR role? Yeah, because you have that, that sort of legal duty to protect the public and to protect property as well as your employees. So you have more of a sort of ability to say you are not in our opinion, you are not fit to work. Therefore we are suspending you now. 

If they're refusing to do the test, then in reality they are failing to comply with a reasonable management request right, that's what I thought and so there is that the sort of the that route to go down, and again it depends on the wording, as you sort of indicated. The fact that they are refusing may well give you the answer that you would get from the test anyway absolutely it's sort of that evidence, isn't it? 

0:14:41 - Sarah
it's that kind of gray area of having, um, a suspicion, and then that sort of evidence which comes back in a sample. 

0:14:47 - Michelle
Yeah now obviously, if it comes back from a test and you've got clear black and white evidence yes, this person had X, y and Z in their system then that is much easier to then progress through a formal process. But if there is the refusal, you can still take them through a formal process because they are refusing to follow a reasonable management instruction, they are failing to comply with the health and safety regulations and you know that protection of of not just themselves but other people so. But it's a it's a, I suppose, more time consuming route because you haven't got that hard evidence to say that they were driving a forklift truck under the influence of drugs or alcohol, which would be gross misconduct and potentially some some some dismissal without notice. 

I can never say summarily dismissal, so you're not up the creek without a paddle um, if they're refusing. But it is a slightly more challenging situation to be in and if that's the case I would probably go down the supportive conversation. Look, we're a bit concerned. Let's get you referred to occupational health, you know. Let's get you through the EAP to get some counselling. You signpost them to drug and alcohol rehabilitation services, that kind of thing. So and that's not to say you wouldn't do that if someone did agree to the test and it came back. But ultimately, where you've got the evidence versus suspicions, you know you do have to take that slightly different approach. 

0:16:31 - Sarah
So, Michelle, earlier you mentioned the HR kind of role in all this. How would you suggest people manage the sort of drug and alcohol policy across the kind of massive variety of roles within a local council? 

0:16:42 - Michelle
So this is why I sort of say that the best approach to policy is to have the with cause and the random, because what you don't want is to create effectively a two-tier workforce where your safety critical roles, your depo staff, your green spaces team, are singled out as being the only ones who ever get tested. And I have a lovely example, not from local authority, but a friend of mine works as a branch manager in a well-known DIY supplier and they had an incident where they had someone turn up to work. They were driving a forklift truck and someone could smell alcohol on their breath. So rather than single that individual out for the with cause, she actually just instigated a random drug test across the entire branch and everybody got tested at the same time. Sure enough, the individual with that they were had suspicions about was under the influence of alcohol at the time. But interestingly they actually discovered another individual that they had no suspicions about whatsoever, who happened to have a class, a drug in their system and again had been out driving for lift trucks with this in their system. It does pay to to have the the rat the ability to do that random testing as well, because in that particular circumstance there had also been uh stock theft from from the branch um, and they identified that the person with the drugs in their system had been stealing stock to fund their habit. So obviously you know there are two aspects there the safety critical side of things, because they were driving forklift trucks but they had also been stealing stock from the branch and therefore costing the branch a lot of money. That sort of illustrates very much that ability to have both aspects. 

We know from the conversations we've been having, sarah, that some organisations are kind of weighting their policies to say that you know the safety critical roles. 70% of the testing that they do across the organisation will be in those safety critical roles. The other 30% will be in the office-based staff and it's just again to create that unified workforce insofar as recognising that the major risk is in those sort of frontline driving services, the heavy machinery services. But actually Joe sitting in HR or finance also needs to be compos mentis to be able to do their job and actually if they are using drugs or alcohol that can affect their performance and that's one of the things around, you know, identifying the with cause. 

It's not just about someone stumbling into the office or behaving erratically, but actually has their capability deteriorated? Are they making more mistakes? Is there something just off with their behaviour? And this is where the line manager comes in so critically, because that line manager should be aware of those behaviour changes in their staff and should be aware of an increase in mistakes or a drop in productivity, which is that sort of the window in which to kind of open up and go do that exploration. Is everything okay, notice that there's been a change, what's going on? Is there anything I can support you with? And then you know, it's that ability for the line manager to sort of go okay, not necessarily singling anyone out, but let's do a random drug test, let's just bring this policy out and say, actually, do you know what? 

0:20:14 - Sarah
I just want to make sure that my staff are where they should be and I think also that that kind of raises that other kind of I keep talking about duty of care. I sound like a broken record, but you know, if there is those kind of characteristics that are off, somebody's obviously struggling and and whether you suspect it's alcohol or some kind of substance or whether they're actually just bloody stressed, you know there's something else going on in their life. It is a good time to broach that kind of subject and you know you're not accusing them of being on some kind of substance that they shouldn't be on. But what you're doing really is kind of taking that time, you know, letting them know that you care and letting them know that you're seeing there's either pressure on or something. 

0:20:52 - Michelle
So actually that you know it covers all that stuff as well absolutely, and that's the importance of the regular one-to-ones with your manager because it, you know, with the right setting, that's the the prime opportunity to go. Actually, do you know what my GP's changed my medication for? You know x, y or z, and actually I'm finding this one is making me drowsy, or, you know, I'm getting a bit of brain fog from it. I'm of an age where actually I the, the brain fog is coming in. 

0:21:22 - Sarah
Yes, yes yeah and actually that's um, you know pretty much every woman in the in the workforce is going to struggle with that absolutely or an aspect of it, or you know part of it so. I think that's a podcast. I feel a podcast coming on guys. 

0:21:38 - Michelle
So yeah, that kind of duty of care thing that your manager knowing you and everything else, it just goes back into being a really good manager yeah, it does, and I fully, you know, I fully understand that managers are not always comfortable having these conversations and I think that comes back to that personal versus work life and there is still an element of that expectation that you leave your personal life at the door when you come into work. 

Thankfully it's changing and thankfully I don't work for an organization who has that mentality and I'm an oversharer anyway but actually there is a role for the HR, learning and development profession to get involved in this, not doing the conversations and having these conversations with individuals that you know you want to test, but actually upskilling the managers to have these difficult conversations. 

And you know it may well be that there is some training around having difficult conversations and you know it may well be that there is some training around having difficult conversations. 

In the past, those difficult conversations have been focused on you might want to buy yourself some deodorant, yes, and those are challenging conversations because they are embarrassing to have with an individual. But you know, now we are moving into, you know, having these more challenging, difficult conversations, um, you know, around substance misuse and actually the training needs to move with it. So you know, training people to have the conversations about deodorant is one thing, but actually that same training course also needs to gear managers up to having these conversations around substance misuse, mental health. You know, all of these more challenging conversations that aren't difficult because they're embarrassing. They're difficult because they are really really challenging to have with someone because you are saying I'm not sure you're fit to work, I have concerns that you know there. There's something going on here that means that you shouldn't be at work or we need to provide more support for you there's a um. 

0:23:38 - Sarah
Just just because I'm sat here looking at both of you on camera, I've just suddenly thought about working from home. I mean, I promise this is a glass of water I've got. This is just water. But there is that kind of. There's that new challenge now. Isn't there as well, where people are working from home and I mean, ok, this might be, this might be too much, michelle, and I apologise, but is there a? I suppose I can see the white of your eyes. You two look very sober, but is there? You know, if you do have a worry about somebody at home, I suppose you could apply that same policy, even if they are in their own environment. They're still working, aren't they? They're still that duty of care. 

0:24:15 - Michelle
Absolutely. They are still your employee. You still have that duty of care. You still have to look after their health and well-being. And you know, we know, that post or during COVID, the number of workplace accident reports plummeted. Um, because people were working at home and you know they weren't in the office tripping over cables or whatever, um. But actually there is a real challenge around monitoring the health and well-being of your workforce when they're at home. And again it comes down to are you meeting them regularly on teams? How are they behaving? Are they behaving differently to how you are used to them, behaving how they wouldn't behave when they're in the workplace? Ultimately, if you're drunk, you're going to be slurring your words, whether you're in the office or at home. 

0:25:04 - Sarah
Yeah, absolutely, it's just that change, isn't it? And in in how you interact with people absolutely. 

0:25:09 - Michelle
And changes in work levels, whether that's, you know, the amount of work they're cracking through, whether that's the quality of work that they are producing. Are things taking longer for them to get done? Are you noticing that they are working longer hours, you know? Are they online from nine o'clock in the morning to seven, eight o'clock at night? Are they still sending emails? Because, again, that's that's an indication that they're not functioning to their full capacity and there may be something there. It may be that actually they are really struggling to work from home because of the isolation, and actually then it's a conversation about could they be in the office more? How can you support that? So, yeah, it's more challenging to spot because it's easier to hide, because you're not in front of them for seven, eight hours of the day, but there are still signs that you can pick up on absolutely, absolutely. 

0:26:05 - Sarah
And, like you say, it's about knowing your staff, isn't it? It's about knowing people and getting and taking that, making that effort to get to know people. So, mich Michelle, just to kind of go back over that, then, is it really important that there is something within the policy that states it does cover people in the office but also those who work on-site at home, or is that something that would be included anyway? 

0:26:23 - Michelle
There's no harm in being explicit about it. I think it's from an employment law perspective. It would be expected, because they are an employee, that they would you know it would be read into the policy that even if they're working from home because they are an employee, they are still covered by that policy and the manager still has the right to test whether that's random or with cause. But there is no harm in being explicit in policy and setting it out in black and white that that is the organisation's intention. 

0:26:56 - Helen
Thank you so much for that, michelle and Sarah. Sarah mentioned during the podcast about our health and safety network. This is for our health and safety colleagues from all member councils and fire and rescue services, and it provides the opportunity to share knowledge and experience on key challenges that they're currently facing. This network is open to those in South East Employers membership and if you'd like more information about it, please email us at info at seempcouk or visit our website, where there are lots more details about all the networks we offer. Also on our website, we will have example policies accompanying this episode of the podcast for all members to access. 

The hr edit is free to listen to and you can find it on apple podcast, spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and for more information about the podcast, and seasons one and two are available on our website, which is where members will also find any related resources mentioned in our episodes. Do follow us on our social media pages, where we'll be announcing each episode as it's released and what's coming up in the following weeks. Thank you for joining us for the first episode of season three. We have a new episode covering a new topic each week, so don't forget to subscribe. Thank you for listening, and for listening to seasons one and two, and we look forward to sharing lots more with you in season three. Thank you.