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0:00:07 - Helen
Hello everyone and welcome to the HR Edit, the podcast from South East employers looking at those common and often tricky HR questions. Today we have a full house of SCE experts joining us, so hello to Sarah, michelle and Ben Hi. Hello. Today we're going to be talking about awareness of neurodiversity. Could someone kick us off by defining what it is? 

0:00:27 - Michelle
Yes, so neurodiversity. At its root definition is a brain that thinks and works in a different way. So you have the neurotypical, where, at the moment, the sort of about 80% of the population are viewed to be neurotypical. So you're looking at a large majority of people who, in theory, their brain works in the same way, so they will react to the same situation in a similar way to each other. They will think about things in the same way as each other, whereas your neurodivergent brain effectively works in a different way. So you'll respond to a situation in a different way to a neurotypical person. You will think about a situation or a problem in a different way to a neurotypical person, and I recently saw some statistics. As I said, about 80% of the population are considered to be neurotypical at the moment. 

0:01:24 - Sarah
About 80% of the population are considered to be neurotypical at the moment, but by the year 2050, it is anticipated that 50% of the population will be neurodivergent, or the fun term, neuro spicy. And Michelle, is that just because there are better ways? Or in this kind of day and age, I suppose in 2024, we have a much better understanding now of you know these different kind of neurodiversities. We have a much better understanding now of you know these different kind of neurodiversities. So, for example, you know you're looking at ADHD, autism, dyslexia, anxiety, you know those kind of things. More and more. People are understanding the brain better. We're understanding that. Actually, the reason you know we think like this is actually because we have this neurodivergent-ness and I've probably just made up a word there, but, um, I'll copyright it now we're good at making up words is that the reason that that there's going to be this massive shift? 

essentially because more and more people are understanding the brain and people are getting diagnosed? 

0:02:14 - Michelle
I suppose yes, I think that's the thing I mean. I think back to my childhood and we didn't hear the words autism, adhd, uh, you know, it just wasn't spoken about. And yes, even 10 years ago, autism was considered to be predominantly a male neurodiversity. Very few females were diagnosed with autism and that's largely because we present in a different way when it comes to masking the symptoms, and females are known through scientific research to be able to mask much more effectively. They watch for social cues more, they adapt and adopt those, whereas in a male autistic child quite often the behavior is very visible, it's acting out, it's not being able to concentrate in class, so the presentation is very different. 

So it used to be that, you know it, females were not generally diagnosed in childhood with autism. Now there is an increasing rate of uh, of diagnosis in females, in uh at sort of school age. So there is an awareness, we're talking about it more, we're understanding more about how the brain works, we're changing the diagnostic tools that are used to identify these different diversities and I've got lots of friends who you know have gone through the assessment process in late life and, you know, at the age of 40 to 50, are getting a diagnosis and all of a sudden there's this aha moment. This is why I have found life challenging, because I don't think A to B. I think you know A, f, g, l, b. 

0:04:04 - Sarah
A, f, G, l, b. I don't mind saying, michelle, that actually I myself am neurodivergent and it's taken me 40 years to get to the point of diagnosis. I suffer with anxiety, but I just thought that life was a bit more of a struggle for me than it was for everybody else, but it's taken me this length of time actually to get my diagnosis and to actually understand how my own brain works, which lends itself to the fact that I'm a creative'm a creative person, I'm a designer, I'm a graphic designer, I very much express myself visually and, and all of a sudden I understand myself and and you know, and it's just because that there is more awareness, as you said. So you know all those years where I went through my work life just thinking it was a bit of a struggle and I don't understand how people are able to confront people with things or aren't massively empathetic towards people. It's like, no, no, you know those kind of things. I just always thought I was, I was different and I didn't realize there was a diagnosis for it. 

So actually, you know, we're talking about, um, neurodivergence, but we're talking about this is actually a really positive thing because you know it takes, it takes everybody to do, you know, to cover all those bases within an organization. You know, with, with neuro inclusion, you get that kind of. You get the creative people, you get the the innovators, you get the. You know different, different perspectives and different ways of thinking of things. So in talking about this topic today, we are very much, you know it's a massive benefit to an organization. Is what I'm trying to say, I think yeah, and I've always. 

0:05:28 - Michelle
You know, my daughter is now a teenager but from a very early age one of our friends, sons, is autistic and was non-verbally autistic. So you know, on the more severe end of that spectrum, and we've always explained it to her as it's just the brain working in a different way. It's not defective, it's not deficient. It is a different way of thinking, it is a different way of doing things and actually, if you have got a problem to solve, what better way than to have people coming at it from multiple different angles, thinking about it in different ways, because that's how you come up with the creative solution, that's how you innovate. 

0:06:13 - Sarah
Absolutely. It's those different perspectives for people with different life experience, different sort of mental processes, and you know, like I say, it's a very personal thing to me, but how all of a sudden you realize that actually things can be corrected and you're still. It's become part of my identity and and something that I don't want to hide, actually, because I'm really proud of the journey I've been on. I suppose then, going into sort of about neurodiversity and neuro inclusion in the workplace, what does that mean? 

0:06:42 - Michelle
practically so, I'll start from the beginning of the journey with an employer, that recruitment and selection piece. So neurodiversity in general means that the standard approach of filling this application form send it in to us, we'll call you for an interview, we'll ask you some questions at the interview and we'll assess you on that day as to whether you are the right fit for the role. 

0:07:10 - Sarah
That approach generally doesn't work as well with neurodivergent individuals so, personally speaking, that's why I stayed in my job for 15 years, because I was too scared to do that. 

0:07:26 - Michelle
And you know, and I'm the same, I also have anxiety and I suspect that I have autism or possibly ADHD. I've not had a diagnosis and I probably won't get one because I've managed to get a good career, I'm doing well, I'm, you know, I know how to work around the challenges that that presents for me, but I know that I don't work in the typical way and yes, I mean I'm very much the same. Well, I've been at Southeast Employers for 15 years. So you know that is quite a daunting prospect having to complete an application form, go for a formal interview and your whole future riding on that 30 to 40 minutes that you're sat in front of your interviewer. So it's about thinking about how you could do things differently. And the really interesting thing about doing things differently is it instantly becomes more inclusive for everybody, not just the neurodivergent but the neurotypical as well. So effectively we're checking, you know. It's about how do we change what we are currently doing to make it more accessible to everybody. And that actually starts with writing the job description and the person specification and that job advert. Neurodivergents often find it very difficult to read a heavy text, so if your job advert is just block after block after block of sentences in, you know, in those chunky paragraphs, that instantly becomes less accessible. Try bullet pointing bits. You know these are the skills we're looking for or these are the values that we want our recruits to have. So change the method in which you're sort of selling yourself and the job. Same goes for job descriptions and person specifications. Short, sharp, punchy information, rather than lots and lots of words, makes it really accessible, really quick to read, really quick to understand and assess whether it is what you're looking for in terms of your next role. 

Then comes the application process. Again, form filling can be a little bit daunting, can be a bit challenging, because you're trying to you know you're trying to figure out what you need to put in each box. Maybe move to CVs. That creates a freedom that enables the individual to express themselves in the way they need to express themselves. If you do have to have the application form, perhaps offer the opportunity for them to send in a recording of their application so, rather than filling in the boxes, they respond verbally to those questions. That's particularly useful for people who might be dyslexic, who struggle with the written word. My parents know someone who is very well spoken, very intelligent, very capable, but cannot translate the words that he speaks and hears in his head into written text. He cannot write. So the opportunity, the opportunity. Obviously, if your job requires you to be able to write, that is different. But you know, the opportunity to apply shouldn't be limited by the fact that you can't fill out a form yeah we obviously do have lots of software these days that can help. 

You've got the voice to text softwares that will enable someone who can't physically write to speak and it, you know, fills in the form, but just giving people the opportunity to to do it in a different way. Then it comes to the actual interview itself. Do you need to do an interview? Could you have them in for a half day work experience so that they're in doing the job, working alongside someone who can judge whether they're going to be competent at doing the job? If you have to do the formal interview, can you make it less formal? Can you make it a chat over coffee at your local Costa or Starbucks rather than in a formal office environment? Again, giving people that comfort of being somewhere familiar to them that isn't potentially overbearing. Giving people the opportunity to see the questions before they come to the interview. So if you're interviewing on a Monday, for example, can you send those questions to them on the Thursday so that they have a few days to reflect on what questions they're going to be asked, prepare some answers that they feel will address that question and demonstrate their ability to fulfill the criteria of the job? 

Interestingly, we have had feedback from people who are neurodivergent, who've been given the questions in advance, and actually they found it more stressful because they were in their mindset that they had to give the perfect answer, because they've been given the questions in advance. So it was like I have to prepare the perfect answer. I cannot mess this up, I cannot. You know, um and ah or, and it actually added to their anxiety. So it may be that actually your recruitment process becomes an a sort of set of options rather than a one-size-fits all, so people can choose to have the questions in advance. People can choose whether they want a coffee shop interview or a formal interview or a half day work. You know, work experience, placement type thing, just thinking about the different ways that you could assess an individual for their competence in the job you're asking them to do, and enabling people to demonstrate that in the best possible're asking them to do and enabling people to demonstrate that in the best possible way for them is what we're aiming for. 

0:12:48 - Ben
That's how you get inclusion thanks, thanks, michelle, and I think just to follow up on on that, uh, before I roll into um some other wider bits you made a really good point there about you know, potentially people moving to, or employers moving to more of a model of kind of accepting CVs and that kind of thing, and something I've seen done that's worked quite well for me in my experience, but I know it's worked well for others too is employers asking what they're kind of calling application questions. So rather than having to submit a CV and a cover letter, a supporting statement, a personal statement, whatever term is being used, actually the employer is asking a series of three or four questions that highlight to the candidate what they are expecting in terms of the key areas to be covered and the key areas that they're going to be assessing through that process. And I know that, you know again, not everybody will find that useful. It may, as you say, make people feel a bit more stressed if they're kind of looking for a model answer within those questions, but they're more scenario based questions and slightly more, I suppose, vocational in that sense than any sort of theory based questions. So that's just something else I've seen that I thought would be worth mentioning at this point, that I thought would be worth mentioning at this point One of the really positive things I've seen in terms of practice in getting people into the workplace at a council in the southeast was actually a almost a ring fence piece of recruitment for young people who may be neurodivergent or have a learning disability of some sort, so that applications were only accepted from those in that position in those circumstances. 

I suppose that you just sort of moving off slightly wider to cover off why that was done, you know was in order to improve representation in underrepresented areas in the workforce, those being young people that may have a disability or be neurodivergent. And again, that was a tailored recruitment process that was done to support those individuals through that and was a really good and a positive thing in getting those individuals into work when they may not have the opportunity otherwise there's some real kind of positive action, which is normally the term used when trying to improve representation in specific areas where it's been identified that they are underrepresented. 

I suppose to move into some of the practical challenges that that created was that you had a cohort of individuals coming into an organization off the back of a really successful recruitment campaign and scheme and initiative, but into areas of the organisation that perhaps had not had experience in supporting those individuals before and where there was potentially a lack of management experience and that kind of thing in dealing with that. And I think there was a gap in that you had an area of the organisation dealing with the recruitment and then it was kind of handed over to local line management once they were through the door. And the gap in the middle was this piece around kind of management training to make the employee experience the best it could be. And we know there's lots of research out there, so I won't quote any specific right now, but there's lots out there about the effect that managers can have on employee experience, their, their levels of engagement, their well-being at work and also, you know, the influence that a manager has on whether somebody chooses to leave an organization, and I suppose that actually applies kind of across the piece. But to bring it back to our topic today, there needs to be a to use your term, sarah there needs to be a neuro-inclusive management style, and what that means is that one size won't won't fit all, so that the manager needs to be able to recognize or learn about the neurodiversity of members of their team potentially and really take some steps to kind of embrace that, I suppose leverage different types of information processing and sort of learning and communication styles that they might have within their team to actually maximize what they're able to do and deliver. 

So identifying you know what people's strengths are, what their individual preferences are, how they able to do and deliver. So identifying you know what people's strengths are, what their individual preferences are, how they like to work, and actually designing the work and the operation of a team in a way that, as far as possible because it might not always be possible but in a way that really leverages all of that to achieve kind of the best possible outcome for people but also for the organisation or whatever service they may be delivering, rather than kind of requiring everybody to fit the same way of working. In that sense, some of that means that organisations need to be slightly more agile in their kind of policy and process development, and I don't just mean kind of HR and people related policy and process development. You know there are ways of working and policies and governance within services and sort of teams which are likely to be HR or kind of people, colleagues within the organisation, to allow them to have that kind of freedom to implement those in a more agile way, to kind of leverage, as I was saying, the strengths of the team, as I mentioned. 

And also and you know this is probably one of the biggest challenges managers need to make time for all of that kind of thing and see it as a priority, rather than seeing people management as being kind of in addition to their potentially sort of technical manager kind of role, because you know, as we all know, if you're managing people, that is like it or not, that is a part of your role, not something that's done on top of everything else. 

So there needs to be that capacity created for that and I think just to kind of highlight some of the things that managers might want support and training on, sometimes it can be something I say this I was going to say as simple as, but that would kind of defeat the point here, something like just being able to have a conversation with a member of their team. That might be neurodivergent if they've not had to have that conversation before with anybody. So it can be something like that. It can be something wider in terms of that leadership piece and actually how you model a team, how how you operate a team, as I'm saying, to really get the most out of it. 

0:19:25 - Sarah
I think what? That's fantastic. Thank you, ben. I think that's, you know, massively important to have people that understand neurodiversity and what that means, but also the benefits of it and how they need to manage. But it raises a point in my mind actually, that do people have to declare a neurodivergence? I suppose, because it's not something I would, in my mind, feel I have to share. We all know I'm an oversharer, it's been said before on this podcast, so I wonder whether, obviously, to help managers then understand how to manage their staff, is it something people should be declaring? 

0:20:00 - Michelle
I there's no requirement for people to declare, but in doing so it actually counter-intuitively to a lot of people it actually helps. So I mean, the challenge we've got in today's day and age is that actually a significant proportion of our workforce probably is neurodivergent, without realizing it and without having a formal diagnosis yep so, going back to that, if you create a neuro inclusive environment, it is inclusive for everybody. 

The simple thing of sitting down with a team member and saying okay, how, how do you like to work, what works best for you, and adapting your management style to support that, rather than imposing your management style on everybody in your team and if Chelsea and Rita were in the room right now, they would say that that is what I have done. I've literally gone to them and said look, I will be the manager you need me to be. Tell me what you need from me and I will provide it. I too, being anxious, I, because I didn't know. I never really declared it because I there wasn't anything for me to say that this is the issue, and I think that's the. The challenge we face at the moment is actually a lot of people won't realize that they'll know they're different, but they won't know why, because they'll watch their colleagues doing things in a certain way and they're going well, that's not how I would do it, I would do it this way or that's not the solution I would have come up with. I would have come up with this solution. So they'll know that they are different without really understanding what is necessarily underlying that difference. So, in terms of declaring, once you're into an organisation and you've kind of understood where they're coming from, it becomes a lot easier for someone to say, actually I struggle to work like that and I will try my best, but actually can we do it this way Because that's the way, you know, that works for me? 

I have a brilliant example. I was coaching a manager who was considering a capability procedure against one of her team members because there were just too many kind of little niggly issues around delivering work on time in a particular way. And as this manager was describing the behaviors of this individual and, as it happened, was describing the behaviours of this individual, and as it happened, I had just completed my level two in understanding autism certificate and as she was describing these behaviours and these challenges, I was thinking there's something different here, you know. And I started talking to this manager and said have you considered the individual may not be aware, but this sounds to me as if there may be a divergence there and that manager kind of sat back and went, oh, and she took away and she went and had a conversation with the individual and I sort of coached her into. What about asking them how they prefer to work, what works for them? Have a conversation about what you could do differently that would support them to be able to deliver more effectively. And this manager thankfully took it all on board, went back to the employee, had those conversations about what do you need? How can I help? There was also a particular issue about tone of voice and how she responded and it was very much about are you aware that this is how that comes across? Is there something that I say that has the same impact on you? So, really having that very open conversation and thankfully the employee felt really supported, really engaged, really opened up and capability was avoided because they found a way to work together to sort of support each other's strengths and weaknesses. And that's the kind of thing we're talking about, you know, in terms of training managers to recognise that there may be a divergence there, the organisation itself having in place, potentially, the ability to get some testing done. 

So at the moment, the waitlist in Hampshire for an autism diagnosis on the NHS is about two years. Adhd is about the same. I'm not sure what dyslexia assessments are, but we all know that there's a massive strain on the NHS for mental health, mental sort of wellbeing resources. So actually, if employers can pay for those assessments to be done privately rather than on the NHS, to enable the individual and the organisation to understand more about how that person's brain works I'm thinking in particular dyslexia to get those assessments done to be able to support whether they need coloured acetate to be able to read more effectively and absorb the text more effectively. Can things be done pictographically rather than as text? Understanding those things in sort of opens the door up to those reasonable adjustments that will enable that individual to really shine yeah, thanks, michelle. 

0:24:58 - Ben
I think you've covered pretty much everything I would have said there. I'm taking the words out of my mouth, particularly the piece around actually by declaring it. It can avoid unnecessary processes like capability, because if the employer and the manager is aware of it, they may understand why things are done differently etc. And you've covered that off. The other point I was going to make just on your brief point about actually by declaring, the other point I was going to make just on your brief point about actually by declaring and you know, yeah to many people perhaps counterintuitively being a positive thing, particularly during the recruitment process, because if it is declared at that point and there's two pieces there, there's declaring through the recruitment process, then there's declaring once you're on board and if you're successful in a role. 

But during that recruitment process, particularly if the organization is perhaps a disability confident employer, which is the scheme whereby you know candidates that declare themselves to have a disability and that's a self-declaration. So there's no right or wrong, if I can kind of say that at that point. It's self-declaration. And if you declare yourself disabled, meet the minimum criteria for that role, ie the essential criteria set out in the person specification or job description. However it's been done, then you are guaranteed, and normally, an interview for that role. Obviously, based on what we've discussed today, it may not be an interview, it may be some kind of different process, but, in short, you are guaranteed to progress to the next stage. So there's a positive piece that many, particularly local authorities, are disability confident employers or varying levels. There are different levels to it, but so it can be a real positive for people in that position. In actually literally ticking that box they, you know, can actually put themselves in a really strong position to move forward, uh, with a role they might be, uh, very interested in thanks, ben. 

0:26:49 - Sarah
I think just one thing that's come to mind just to round off, the kind of importance of management training is on the flip side, if we've got managers listening to this who are just like, oh my goodness, there are so many divergent, I don't know. Divergences, divergences. 

0:27:01 - Michelle
I don't know what to write. 

0:27:02 - Sarah
Divergences, divergences. How am I supposed to understand everything and then make, let's say it, reasonable adjustments for all my staff and you know all this kind of stuff? I think it's less about understanding them all individually, but understanding how you can be open and you know how spending that time with your staff will allow you to understand them as people better than just you know as an employee, I suppose. 

0:27:27 - Ben
I think I would agree with that, sarah, and I think you're right. There's just an element I said balance is the word I would use and in that actually I don't think any organizational or employer would be kind of suggesting for one moment that line managers should become absolute experts in the, the neurodiversities of of their, their team. So there there is balance and actually I suppose, maybe just to bring a bit of balance to what I was just saying on the recruitment piece also, you know that it's a personal choice, isn't it? Declaration, as michelle was saying, that you know there is no requirement to declare it is a personal choice, isn't it? Declaration, as Michelle was saying, that you know there is no requirement to declare it is a personal choice. Some people will feel more comfortable declaring than others, and that's okay. 

So it is about balance and I think, as you say, you know and obviously we've done podcasts on reasonable adjustments before, but actually you know, reasonable adjustments do have to be reasonable. So there is always just that caveat and that balance as a manager, particularly, yeah, hypothetically, you know, if you have a large number of people within your team or a high proportion of people in your team that may have a neurodiversity, then there is always that balance in trying to make the team, as I was saying, work in the best way you can, but also trying to make the team work and just keeping that balance of kind of actually what can be achieved. So there is always that balance from the employer's side, in that they have, you know, a service to deliver, a service to run, so on and so forth, and they will need to keep that, that balance with what adjustments they're able to make for people. 

0:29:06 - Helen
Thank you everyone for joining us today. There's been a lot covered in today's episode. If you are a member of SEE, visit the podcast on our website at wwwseempcouk. Forward slash the HR edit for a list of neurodiversities as an accompanying resource for this episode. You will also find a link to our episode exploring reasonable adjustments, which was in season two. If you would like any more information about neurodiversity training in your organization, please get in touch at info at seempcouk. The hr edit is available on the sce website, apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts, and we look forward to seeing you back next week. Thank you very much and we'll see you then. 

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