Unlocking Change: the transformative power of coaching


00:01 - Sarah (Host)
Hello everyone and welcome to Seedpod. I'm Sarah. In this episode, Ruth is joined by SEE Associate Consultant Sue Noble, who is an Executive Business and Leadership Coach. Ruth and Sue discuss the benefits and impact of coaching, especially in times of change. 

00:19 - Ruth (Co-host)
Today I'm really pleased to be joined in a conversation on coaching by Sue Noble. Sue's been a long-standing associate of Southeast Employers, working with us and working with councils in the region, delivering coaching for managers and for senior leaders, and she's also written a book Coaching People Through Organisation Change, which, given the environment local authorities are working in, is absolutely essential that we find every way possible to make this a smooth and successful process. I am a trained coach. I don't deliver a lot of coaching, but my experience of coaching was when I was coached to really step up in my career and take on new responsibilities and deal with some of those issues that, um, you know, sometimes come with experience, and working with a coach to work through them was just absolutely invaluable. So just to sort of get your reflections to, as someone that does this all the time what is your driver to being a coach, what's your motivation for being a coach and what's some of the transformational changes that you've seen in people? 

01:28 - Sue (Guest)
Thank you, and I'm delighted to be here and being an associate for the Southeast employers as well. So I mean, I've been coaching people for, I'd say, about 20 years I've been within this industry for that long and my driver for actually being a coach and learning to be a coach because I first started out to be honest, there weren't that many courses around at the time, but when I first started out, I was just so curious about how, when you're with somebody who has a dilemma, by asking some really incisive questions, it helps them to think in a different way, and just by helping people to see things from different perspectives instead of being entrenched in a one way of thinking, which often happens when we're going through change. Whole passion was I really want to bring this into organisations and help other organisations to use these particular skills, because it is very valuable and I certainly my experience exactly that. 

02:33 - Ruth (Co-host)
That's captured it perfectly that you step up in an organisation, but you bring with you your experience and that challenge of what different options are there. How could you see this differently? How do you put yourself in the perspective or the shoes of the other person? How do you put yourself in the perspective of what good looks like and what success could be like? And it just opens the doors absolutely to, um, that different way I found of being, which is, you know, it's probably now about 15 years ago since I was coached, and I would say I've never looked back in terms of how invaluable it's been to my career, but also to what you bring to organisations in terms of different perspectives. 

03:17 - Sue (Guest)
Absolutely. And the thing is about coaching. What it can do is just help people take responsibility. What it can do is just help people take responsibility, especially as a senior leader, that importance of being accountable for your own thoughts and actions and also about just challenging some assumptions which people have about things or people. And, as you mentioned there, ruth, about that just asking those questions which gets them to think in different ways, different, and actually getting those aha moments, those oh crumbs, and they suddenly realise it for themselves. And that's the power when people realise for themselves how they've suddenly come to an idea themselves, just by a coach asking a question which they may not have ever been asked before or may not have ever thought to ask themselves. 

04:07
And that external perspective from an external coach is really valuable. Because as a coach as you know, ruth yourself say, I'm working from a different perspective myself. I'm not entrenched in the organisation and the politics, I'm seeing things from a much more holistic view. So I can sort of look at this person quite holistically and think, okay, so there's various things going on here and there's things out there and over there. And that's what I'm helping them to understand is you know what's going on over there and who else is involved in this, and what are your relationships like with this person, and how can things improve just by tweaking the way that you're doing? And these are questions which are not often asked. 

04:50 - Ruth (Co-host)
Yeah, no, it's true, and certainly you know what I've taken from coaching is exactly in those, then daily interactions you have with people in your team that you start to say, can we look at this a different way, Can you look at this? And you just start then to make that part and parcel, isn't it of all your interactions when you've been coached? 

05:08 - Sue (Guest)
And there's one example I'd like to give where I was asked to coach an individual by a manager. 

05:15
They were quite resistant to start with and it was quite difficult to really build rapport with this individual. 

05:21
There was a bit of resistance, you know a bit of anger with the organisation as a whole, but over time something had clicked for her. She wasn't used to being asked challenging questions and part of her issue was around not having the confidence to do a qualification. There was lots of resistance about that. So we worked through that, helping to build her confidence and realising that if she included some strategies then that would work for her. So the coaching sessions ended and she contacted me afterwards to say I just want to say a big thank you because the coaching sessions with me helped her to do is realise that she was in the right place to do the qualification, and that's great to hear. And so that's just one example, but there are so many examples where people have just sort of changed their thought process and given themselves confidence in terms of their abilities and realising that they have much stronger identity in terms of who they are in the position that they're in Moving on to coaching and organisation change. 

06:22 - Ruth (Co-host)
as I mentioned in the introduction, it's a massive amount of change going on in local government. Many of our areas found out they're going to be fast-tracked for unitarisation, devolution. They're going to be building new organisations, new teams, changing structures, changing governance perhaps going into this and may have not been through this experience before. It's going to be challenging for politicians who are trying to have been elected to support residents but all of a sudden they've got this whole landscape change. And it's certainly going to be challenging for managers at every level in an organisation. So the environment is one of an incredible amount of change and an incredible pace of change. Thinking about the book you wrote about coaching people through change, what role do you see coaching can play to make that process as effective as possible? 

07:16 - Sue (Guest)
Yeah, and that's a great question. So there's two things. It's either the formal coaching or there is the using the principles of coaching. Have a conversation with somebody who is struggling with change, struggling with uncertainty really not showing, not sure what the direction of their careers are or even what they're doing at the moment because of that uncertainty. So the role coaching plays is having those opportunities to stop, to listen, to really understand what's going on for somebody else, instead of trying to convince them that everything's going to be fine. So the role it plays is just to support people with understanding. Okay, so what would be a good outcome for you and how can we support you through this really challenging process? 

08:13 - Ruth (Co-host)
have you ever encountered a lot of organisational resistance to coaching on the basis that people do say, well, it's, it's helping the individual, but what's it doing for my organisation when he's tight? Why would I invest in coaching one person when we've got an organisation of 500 staff that are going through the change? And how can you you know, how can you sort of, I suppose, counter some of those, perhaps pushback on the role coaching can play, whether it's good value for money, whether you know it's going to give the impact at scale. 

08:47 - Sue (Guest)
Yeah, well, I think that, first of all, coaching is misunderstood in many ways. I think you know, you just Google images coaching and it comes up with sports coaching analogies, and we're not there to be sports coaches. What we're there is to have those conversations. So you know, it's really about how can we embed these skills and approaches within an organisation which is going to be sustainable, and so part of that is understanding that this needs to be a bigger picture. If you like, it's not just about offering coaching to one or two people. It's about skilling up our managers in order to have the time to stop and listen to their teams but also be supportive themselves. 

09:37
So, yes, that takes some effort and the pushback is often it's going to take too much time, it's going to be costly, but actually you know what is the cost of that in real terms, because if people are going through change and they're struggling, which then leads to possibly poor performance, you know they're not working at their best. It might impact on their customers as well. It could very much lead to absenteeism. All of that costs money. All of that is not good for the organisation the councils so it's really thinking about how can we do this in a way which everybody speaks the same language and understands what it's about and those techniques to help others. 

10:21 - Ruth (Co-host)
I suppose pushing a little bit further on that, because I say my experience of coaching and coming back to whether it was value for money. You know I was invested in, uh, in an organisation at a time that the organisation was going to go through change because there was going to be a change in administration and then, ultimately, the organisation needed closing. Motivating people to the kind of bitter end of an organisation when they knew they were going to lose their job was one of the impacts of coaching. That the organisation was really strong right till, you know, it closed its doors and and I would absolutely track that back to staff satisfaction and that because of coaching and being able to use some of those techniques Do you do when you talk about sort of sharing this across managers? So is it possible to do group coaching, then, or organisational coaching, or does that sort of stray into a little bit of training, development and whatever? Have you ever done group coaching? Is that? 

11:30 - Sue (Guest)
a thing. Well, group coaching is a thing, but it's also not to be confused with team coaching as well. So in the book I describe the differences between group coaching team coaching. But it is possible to have group coaching, although what you find is people won't be honest necessarily with what they're thinking and feeling. So when you're having a one to one coaching session, somebody is there to be a little bit vulnerable to admit that they're struggling, whereas you may not have that in a group coaching session. 

12:01
Things like interventions such as action learning sets is another way of introducing group coaching as well. But the idea being is that if you have a team of people, either team of managers or a whole team then what you can do is ask questions to help them understand what's going on for them as a team and to help identify where they need to be, what are their motivations, what is holding them back from being their best selves. So I don't think it really matters in terms of whether it's group or individual, but what does matter is you're having those conversations, You're giving somebody the opportunity to be heard, and that is what people often miss during change. Some people are quite internalised and so they may not want to verbalise how they're thinking and feeling, and so it's watching out for those people who may be struggling but not saying, Whereas you have some people who are quite vocalised and they will soon tell you when they're not happy, and so they tend to get the voice. But it's helping everybody to have that voice, whether that's done individually or in groups. 

13:08 - Ruth (Co-host)
And have you ever been asked to coach someone and you just knew that what was needed was not coaching? Or do you think actually, actually no, it can adapt to every situation. You know sometimes, you know, I get often asked to go in and train and you think this is not a training issue, this is a more fundamental corporate issue or whatever that training won't solve. And I just wonder, you know, is coaching good for every situation? Or are there sometimes where you say, actually what's needed here is something different and it's it? You know you wouldn't use it as a technique yeah, definitely. 

13:39 - Sue (Guest)
um, and there are so many different interventions, even when you introduce it, as within organisations, coaching is not the be all and end all. But it's a very good place to start and I have definitely coached people where I've thought, okay, um, this isn't a coaching situation, this person doesn't really suit the coaching approach. It's more either for them, therapy, or for some, it could be mediation, if they're talking particularly about one person who they're not getting on with. So what I am very good at is being able to pinpoint whether or not that person is wants to move forward and wants to do their own personal change, which is really what coaching is about. So it isn't suitable for all situations, absolutely. 

14:26 - Ruth (Co-host)
So, just as we sort of start to wrap the conversation up, sue, which has been really interesting, why really, for you, is coaching a powerful development tool? 

14:37 - Sue (Guest)
Yeah, I mean it's. That's an interesting question in itself, because there are so many different aspects to this. The reason why I believe it's so powerful is because it gives people a voice. It gives them a safe, confidential space for them to be almost like to be vulnerable, with somebody who they trust to help them make sense of these challenges they're going through in a way which they may not have even thought about. So it's that safe space. It's personalised to the individual. It provokes a discussion and gives them the opportunity of being asked questions they may not have even thought to have asked themselves or even be asked, and remembering that all of this is about there's no judgment or shame to be honest, to work through critical thinking, to think more strategically and to actually get to a place which is workable for them, as opposed to being pushed in a direction they don't want to go. 

15:45 - Ruth (Co-host)
Yeah, no, absolutely. And the last thing, because clearly I talk about this, people always ask about the impact. Well, give me examples of where it really has made a difference, either to a person or an organisation. So have you got any insights, given your experience, of when you've seen total organisation change, total personal change? When you know any, any sort of quotes or case studies you'd like to share? 

16:10 - Sue (Guest)
well, there's plenty of quotes out there. So I mean, if you're thinking about all the research which icf and emCC, CIPD have come up with, what it's telling us is that 90% of organisations use coaching. 80% have said that once received coaching, there's been an increase in self-confidence and also improved relationships and communication. There is another example I'd like to share with you where I've worked with an organisation who was going through a big change, but at the same time, they wanted to develop an internal cohort and almost like the coaching culture. So I was brought in to develop internal coaches and also to develop their managers in the coaching skills, and it was absolutely fantastic because what I had was people who were ambassadors. They were coaching ambassadors, they really believed in it and because of that they were then able to, once they became qualified as a coach an internal coach they then went on to coach others through the change which your organisation was going through. 

17:15
So that's another way in which we can keep this sustainable, and I know that a lot of the reasons why organisations don't have coaches or the masses, if you like is because of the cost of it, possibly, and also, how do you actually organise that? So what we have with internal coaches is the just-in-time coaching. This is where people can, you know, just almost like access coaching quite quickly. But what is really important and actually which happened with this cohort, was that they had regular coach supervision, not just through their training, but actually afterwards as well, and that is what matters afterwards as well. And that is what matters because often once coaches have their training, they don't seem a need to have supervision after that, and actually that is when they do definitely need it. So that was a real success story. Changes happened with the organisation, but as a cohort they continued to develop themselves and continue the coaching, and I think that was fantastic. 

18:15 - Ruth (Co-host)
Yeah, and certainly I say to sit with my experience in the organisation I was when I went through coaching was it massively accelerated my career within that organisation to be able to offer so much more back to the organisation in terms of how I led the process of transformation, how I led the process of closure, how I took staff with me, how staff stayed really highly motivated and got really excellent staff satisfaction ratings right until the end of the process. And ultimately the process was that people were going to lose their job because the organisation was closing and ending and things were transferring and moving on, as happens in the public sector. But the things I learned going through that process just helped me help other people so much better to be able to manage and cope with this and see a real positive future. So I am a real life coach and as part of the arm of any organisation going through change. 

19:09
Sue, thank you so much for your contribution. We are delighted to keep working with you. We really will be doing a lot more on this because it's a challenging time for senior leaders and any manager in the public sector. So we will keep talking about development. So thank you very much, thank you. Thank you, ruth, and. 

19:28 - Sarah (Host)
Sue for sharing your thoughts on coaching. It seems like it's going to be an essential service to guide officers, managers and leaders through what is going to be a huge period of change within local government over the next few years. As mentioned in the episode, sue has authored a book with Amy Tarrant called Coaching People Through Organisational Change Practical Tools to Support Employees Through Business Transformation. It is available to order today on Amazon and via all good bookstores. We have a link on the podcast website page and in the show notes. 

20:00
You can access Sue as a coach via SCE. Just drop us an email at info at seemp.co.uk and let us know how we can help you Look out for the next episode of the Seed Pod, but if you can't wait for that one, catch up on the other episodes in the series or on our other podcasts governance matters and the hr edit, which, as we always say, is not just for hr professionals and don't forget to visit our website, seemp.co.uk, where our member councils and organisations have access to all sorts of resources, and our partner hub seed pod. The hr edit and governance matters are podcasts from southeast employers and can be found wherever you get your podcasts. 

Coaching People through Organisational Change: Practical Tools to Support Employees through Business Transformation - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Coaching-People-through-Organizational-Change/dp/1398607029/ref=sr_1_1?crid=86ZKS9FLN1V8&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.3VkEtjVeLPpr4NQFurTIrPBUQRoOnYyuyPaVAwqOFno.19KP3SaWzjj2KhdRvhSmW-yFqS8K61kyyHAElyEiTlg&dib_tag=se&keywords=Sue+Noble&qid=1740738414&sprefix=sue+noble%2Caps%2C112&sr=8-1&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.95fd378e-6299-4723-b1f1-3952ffba15af